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dabinat 11 hours ago [-]
The headline makes it sound like this is specific to NY, but this is a national bill introduced in the House by a NY rep.
JumpCrisscross 2 hours ago [-]
> this is a national bill introduced in the House
Nothing has been introduced–he has "announced he will introduce." It's still silly-season bluster.
mrkramer 11 minutes ago [-]
I was thinking about this problem; the solution would be that when you buy a game you get certificate of ownership, meaning that you can invoke your ownership right at any games distribution platform e.g. Steam, EGS and GOG or any console digital store. But the problem is that there would be a backlash by aforementioned games distribution platforms and publishers because they want you to buy the game wherever you go and wherever you play.
krylonmae 10 minutes ago [-]
Won’t go anywhere, these bills are usually for lobbyist and company shakedowns, think of it as fundraising for the Democratic Party.
Buttons840 10 hours ago [-]
Even better would be broad copyright reforms. Fair Use needs to be expanded and clarified. History has shown players are able to keep games alive themselves by emulators, reverse engineering, custom servers, etc. Expand Fair Use to say that these things are protected if needed to keep the game functional.
JimDabell 21 minutes ago [-]
Publication of the source code should be required for software to be copyrightable and copyright should expire much sooner. It makes no sense for a binary to fall into the public domain 70 years later.
modeless 9 hours ago [-]
Fair use is already pretty good, but we shouldn't need to rely on it to preserve older games. The reform we need is a dramatically shorter term for copyrights. All older games should be completely out of copyright.
ascagnel_ 8 hours ago [-]
I'd add better handling of copy-protected titles as well. If a game wants the benefit of copyright, they need to make a version of it without DRM available in escrow (held by some entity like the Library of Congress) for when the copyright expires.
One of the big issues with DRM is that it's not legal in the US to break the digital lock even if the work is in the public domain, so that needs to be accounted for as well.
derektank 2 hours ago [-]
>One of the big issues with DRM is that it's not legal in the US to break the digital lock
My understanding is that the Library of Congress has the authority to designate situations in which it is legal to remove DRM on electronic copies of books you have purchased, such as to run it through a TTS program for those that are visually impaired. Does this not apply to other art mediums?
mitxela 6 hours ago [-]
People can just break the law though
DaiPlusPlus 3 hours ago [-]
…then the law has no respect, which is a problem.
hypersoar 7 hours ago [-]
I wish, but shortening existing copyright terms would be legally very thorny. It would run into Takings Clause challenges and violate treaties the US has signed.
tancop 2 hours ago [-]
If the government banned fracking it wouldn't need to compensate owners of oil rich land when it becomes worthless. Devaluing property is not the same as taking it.
And the legal basis is completely different, copyrights are created as an artificial right in the Copyright Clause, given for a limited time and purpose. They are not property in the traditional sense and Congress has absolute power over them.
chii 7 hours ago [-]
> violate treaties the US has signed.
not that has stopped the US doing something.
The fact is, copyright extensions have served corporate interests well and is likely to continue to get extended even more, and more draconian, given how many decompilation and recomps have been done recently.
hypersoar 7 hours ago [-]
Yes, obviously, that's why terms have been extended so far. My point is that, for the same reason, existing legal structures make this much harder to undo than to do.
pseudony 5 hours ago [-]
Oh don’t worry. If the US can bail on the treaty signed with Ukraine and repeatedly threaten to not honor NATO commitments, then this is small-fry stuff.
AnthonyMouse 6 hours ago [-]
> It would run into Takings Clause challenges
The incumbents would probably file lawsuits, but would they win?
If Congress can set copyright terms retroactively, why can't they set copyright terms retroactively?
What happens if they do the thing where you have to file for a renewal every year and the first 14 years are free and automatic, but then the renewal fee starts at $1000 and doubles for every year over 14?
> violate treaties the US has signed.
This is just an excuse the industry uses after bribing their way into some documents that can be renegotiated at any time. The US has been the ones pushing for this nonsense to begin with, so if they stopped, most other countries would be happy to enter into a different treaty. And the remaining ones would be the ones with the most to lose if they were the only ones to not sign onto the new agreement at the point when the US and most others pull out of the corrupt one.
Aerroon 2 hours ago [-]
Then get rid of the treaty.
thephyber 7 hours ago [-]
This administration would just say that it is in the national security interest of the US to do the thing. Judges are wary to restrict the POTUS prerogatives relating to national defense, so they won't challenge it.
It's the dumbest and most obvious weakness of our system of government and it will never be fixed.
999900000999 7 hours ago [-]
Something like a 20 year cap on copywright would be fair.
We already have reverse engineering tools, and the vast majority of 20 year old media isn't producing new revenue.
Will never ever happen. Disney alone would spend billions to stop any meaningful copyright reforms
dotwaffle 1 hours ago [-]
20 years is short enough for someone to wait for it to expire rather than pay a licensing fee. You ideally want it long enough that someone can benefit from their work, without being so long that society is unduly prohibited from creating derivative works.
If you look back at what was created in the past, 30 years seems like an absolute minimum, 50 years seems about right -- perhaps with a registration requirement for the full term so that works with an unclear publication date and ownership can be easily traced. That would mean the film Logan's Run would just be leaving copyright protection now.
For context, I believe in the UK, there is a 50-year term for broadcasts, computer-generated works, Crown Copyright (125 years or 50 from first commercial publication if within 75 years of creation), and certain classes of films. There's a schedule here: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/copyright-notice-...
latexr 27 minutes ago [-]
> 20 years is short enough for someone to wait for it to expire rather than pay a licensing fee.
“Someone” might, but most people won’t. Do you think studios are going to announce the next blockbuster and most people will be like “eh, I’ll just wait 20 years, maybe I’ll have a kid and raise them until adulthood to pass the time”?
Portal is going to be 20 next year. I bought Portal 1 and 2 for a couple of bucks like a decade ago already.
I’d even say 20 years default is two long. Especially because there are things which are just abandoned. Make it shorter and add limited options to renew for limited time.
mitxela 6 hours ago [-]
They let Mickey Mouse expire.
999900000999 6 hours ago [-]
[dead]
f3408fh 10 hours ago [-]
How do you define functional?
astafrig 9 hours ago [-]
Maintaining the same functionality advertised or realised at the time it was purchased.
tiltowait 7 hours ago [-]
This seems tough-to-unworkable for some games. I'll use World of Warcraft^1 as an example.
WoW launched in an essentially unfinished state. Molten Core, the first 40-man raid, didn't have a loot table. I'm not sure it was even accessible on launch day. And when it did get a loot table, it had placeholder graphics for the tier 1 set.
This was fine: it would take months for players to be able to tackle end-game content, so the game didn't need to launch with it all ready to go. But a law requiring Blizzard to keep a launch-day WoW available wouldn't be especially satisfying.
Even if you changed it to be "its full functional state" or something similar, that gets weird. After Molten Core was BWL, which you couldn't reach on launch. And so on and so forth. WoW changes a ton over an expansion, and each expansion brings even bigger changes (do you play pre-Cata or post?). Do we require Blizzard to keep available each and every patch version? Hotfix version? How do players decide which they want to play? I really enjoyed the Argent Tournament, but I bet most preferred actually reaching ICC (which itself had a bunch of time locks before you could reach Arthas, himself).
[1]: Even beyond everything outlined, WoW gets weird when you consider Classic and now Forever.
thephyber 6 hours ago [-]
Your complaint is probably moot foot dragging. Companies aren't held liable for breaking a law that didn't exist at the time they released a product.
An ever-evolving game with properties of a SaaS would likely not exist under this new law.
Blizzard already knew how to build self-contained products with self-contained expansions even before WoW was released. StarCraft was the original game and StarCraft Broodwar was the expansion. It will affect game release cycles and properties of what you get with the game, but that's seems like part of the point of the legislation.
dageshi 4 hours ago [-]
The industry would certainly adapt.
For example, massive expansion of free to play games with cosmetic microtransactions.
When the game ends... what is it that you've bought? The cosmetics, you never bought the game. If they give you an offline "shooting range" mode where you can wander the maps in the cosmetics you bought, have they satisfied the requirements? Again, you never bought the game you bought the cosmetics.
A step farther, loot drops in loot boxes that take time to unlock, on the order of days, weeks or months. You buy something to accelerate the unlock process down to hours. What have you bought? Just a faster unlock of something you'd have received anyway. So what are you owed when the game goes end of life? You didn't buy the game, you didn't buy the contents of the lootbox.
alanfranz 5 hours ago [-]
I didn’t really read the bill, but I see no problem in subscription games. I don’t remember how wow was ‘sold’ when released. But if I buy a game on a 12 month subscription, I understand I’m not purchasing a game forever.
Problem is with “purchase” imho.
mitxela 6 hours ago [-]
Guess they'll have to release their version control history so that every player can select the experience on their own launch day
xeonax 7 hours ago [-]
Did they only sell the first unfinished version? if they ever sold the finished version, that should be also included.
dataflow 9 hours ago [-]
Usable similarly to how it was at the time of first sale?
uglykept 3 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
kmeisthax 8 hours ago [-]
What you want is to repeal DMCA 1201. It is specifically 1201 that is responsible for the most anti-preservation rulings. Custom servers are legally imperiled because Blizzard, the patient zero of the technofeudalist takeover of the US, sued a developer for releasing a Battle.net custom server and won because he didn't implement the CD Key check. It is fairly trivial to make a central server have DRM checks that a third-party replacement can't replicate, even though they legally have to, which makes them effectively illegal.
Expanding exceptions to copyright law would be nice for different reasons, but custom servers and emulation were already legal before companies figured out they could put arbitrarily difficult roadblocks in the way of them.
Also while we're here, DMCA 512 was also a piece of horseshit, albeit less because it curtailed online freedom and more because it isn't a good way to adjudicate low-stakes copyright claims.
xg15 31 minutes ago [-]
Isn't this basically an announcement of an announcement?
One senator makes a press release saying that he plans to introduce a bill protecting game ownership.
It's not clear if this bill has any chance of being voted in - and even if it does, we have no idea what is actually in the bill.
m463 6 hours ago [-]
We should give our money to folks like GOG (www.gog.com) who provide DRM-free games, all downloadable and playable offline. no need to be online. No need to create an account. no need to play (heh) by someone else's rules.
wesselbindt 56 minutes ago [-]
I think this solves the problem at the wrong level. Ultimately, if you can make the licensing model work (and you can), it is far more profitable than an ownership model. As such, in a system where the scoring function is profit, the system will naturally tend toward a licensing model. An example of this would be operating at a loss for a while to outcompete competitors operating on an ownership model, to the point where they become negligible, so you can crank up the prices in a market that has become dependent on a licensing-based oligopoly, and rake in the profits.
To disrupt this natural tendency, you need an external influence which is not beholden to this scoring function. A good example (but not the only one) of such an external influence would be government regulations.
You could try to influence the cycle as consumers, but there are two significant roadblocks for this approach. Firstly, consumers are highly decentralized, and heterogeneous in their beliefs and actions. Sure, _you_ may understand and believe that a licensing model is bad, but how about the billions of others who are less politically engaged? The second is that consumers operate largely in the same profit driven system as the corporations we're trying to change. It takes a very principled individual to buy gta 6 at a 50% markup just so they can -own- the game rather than just rent it indefinitely.
I don't know of any instances in history of consumers making any meaningful impact in this way. Tons of examples of government regulation effecting meaningful change though.
Fire-Dragon-DoL 5 hours ago [-]
You are still purchasing a license. Definitely an improvement, but you cannot pass your game collection to your children, which I find horrible.
gigaritee 5 hours ago [-]
With gog? of course i can. I have the files and i can give them to my family. They can then play them.
The fact that I'm "buying" a license holds as much weight in this issue as the countless eulas and privacy policies i supposedly agreed to.
We "endusers" live in a world were we are compelled, yes compelled, to enter legal agreements to do anything, and where these terms are dictated and changed unilaterally. Terms like these should and are meaningless yo everyone except for courts that foolishly hold them valid. For everything else, they should and are ignored.
rbits 5 hours ago [-]
You can pass your game collection to your children. Just download them and put them on a USB drive. I guess you won't get updates that way, though.
alanfranz 5 hours ago [-]
You mean legally? Because technically in GoG you can.
chrisjj 2 hours ago [-]
Technically legally no.
"Your GOG account and GOG content are personal to you and cannot be shared with, sold, gifted or transferred to anyone else."
ThunderSizzle 32 minutes ago [-]
What if my trust or business buys it? My trust/business is a legal individual that can be passed down to other owners over time?
JumpCrisscross 4 hours ago [-]
"announced he will introduce"
He hasn't introduced squat. I complained about this two days ago [1][2]. It's incredibly disingenuous to pretend to announce legislation while keeping the text–possibly unwritten–secret.
(Torres is running for reëlection as a Democrat in a solid-D district [3].)
Really curious to see how this will benefit AAA game makers and hurt indie Devs in near future. I have serious doubts that these billion dollar companies will just eat up such rules.
torben-friis 3 hours ago [-]
Hot take: I think the battle for ownership is focusing in the wrong thing a bit.
Everyone is pushing for the rights of keeping the game alive after support ends, but in the move to digital I'm much more concerned with the loss of second hand markets.
Historically, my concern hasn't been running a 2005 game in 2025. Emulation tends to find ways. My concern is that this generation I was able to game at about 10 bucks per game (buying for 30 selling for 20 after I'm done, roughly) and the next generation is shaping at 100/game. That's a 10x increase in practice for the hobby.
Aerroon 1 hours ago [-]
I think this doesn't really apply to games. Video games have had an incredibly sticky price.
The Legend of Zelda in 1987 was $50. Adjusted for inflation it would cost $151 today.
Diablo 2 released in 1999 at $50. Today that would be $101.
Diablo 3 released in 2012 at $60. Today that would be $88.
Diablo 4 released in 2023 at $70. Even this would be $77 today, despite being only 3 years ago.
Zelda Tears of the Kingdom released in 2023 for $70.
I do agree that the lack of a secondary market is concerning, but I think that in practice subscription services, piracy, and F2P games fulfill the niche of low cost gaming (for now). Don't know what the future holds though.
torben-friis 6 minutes ago [-]
>I think that in practice subscription services, piracy, and F2P games fulfill the niche of low cost gaming
F2P is not an alternative because (good) games are not a commodity, each piece is individually valuable (otherwise why conserve?). Subscription services are just enshittification waiting to happen.
Piracy is actually an alternative, but we all lose if consumers are pushed to that.
The lack of secondary market is not only a concern for low cost gamers, it also pushes for monopolies in several different dimensions. For example, you're less likely to move platforms if you can't resell your library. You're also less likely to give a chance to a less known dev if you can't resell in case you don't like it.
luen 10 hours ago [-]
Consumers always hope that what they gain from a purchase is ownership.
mitxela 6 hours ago [-]
Otherwise it's not even a purchase, so it shouldn't involve a transfer of money, because that's what you do when purchasing things
mathgeek 4 hours ago [-]
No reasonable person walked out of a Blockbuster thinking they permanently owned a rented film. There are plenty of transfers of currency without implied ownership.
catlikesshrimp 4 hours ago [-]
A rental has a defined time or use limit. If you want to call a game a rental, they must at least charge a monthly or yearly or per login fee.
This sounds counter intuitive, but the added friction is THE WHY they don't want to call it a rental on paper, only on appeals.
The same applies to concerts and weekend club: This is an event with a defined time limit.
You call a car leasing a leasing, you don't call it a sale with a small print.
eps 3 hours ago [-]
How do you propose people pay for a roller coaster ride?
Barrin92 6 hours ago [-]
that seems silly, I'm not supposed to be able to rent an apartment or a movie? There should be transparency of course and no misleading labeling but I see no reason why people should be prevented from transacting money for whatever arrangement they please
SlightlyLeftPad 2 hours ago [-]
Assuming it passes, I wonder if this will have an unintended side effect of giving studios and publishers “no choice” but to only make SaaS-based games going forward.
knollimar 8 hours ago [-]
I hope there's an indie carveout or something for less than like 200k revenue.
And maybe a carveout if your licensing gets pulled.
I really want copyright to stay the hell out of the way of just letting players reverse engineer old games, but it's an international thing at this point
nvme0n1p1 8 hours ago [-]
> And maybe a carveout if your licensing gets pulled.
This is a common excuse publishers use to yank games, so if you do this the bill would be crippled.
Fire-Dragon-DoL 5 hours ago [-]
Nope. Every single game should.
We have a right to own our videogame, there is absolutely no necessity to have an exclusion, make the server open source if you want to shutdown the server
aaomidi 8 hours ago [-]
My guess is indie devs would actually mostly be fine with this.
tripleee 8 hours ago [-]
My guess is this wouldn't even be required for 95% of indie devs
matheusmoreira 11 hours ago [-]
This is amazing. So glad to see stuff like this happening.
wg0 5 hours ago [-]
And how this is not reasonable? This should be extended to any devices as well that has any firmware or drivers such as these cameras and smart bulbs.
Don't they understand e-waste and how is it piling up?
this is the kinda of stuff ppl should copy around the world
tonyhart7 8 hours ago [-]
how is this gonna work for those online games like genshin, league, cs etc ????
Rohansi 8 hours ago [-]
Release the server software. Counter Strike's is already available to download.
mashlol 7 hours ago [-]
What if it depends on licensed code that you cannot legally distribute?
cowlevel 6 hours ago [-]
When a contract clause conflicts with the law, you have to follow the law, not the contract.
tonyhart7 6 hours ago [-]
well noooo
if people can buy the game with ownership, then how does subscription like software adobe is exist ?????
Fire-Dragon-DoL 5 hours ago [-]
It can exist, this is saying that if it stops being sold you have the right to an offline copy.
stale2002 4 hours ago [-]
Force them to release it anyway. By law.
ekianjo 7 hours ago [-]
make it legal
kg 8 hours ago [-]
They're free, so I don't see how they're relevant. Do you mean the in-app purchases?
yieldcrv 10 hours ago [-]
this bill self deletes on January 3rd
along with everything else introduced that doesn’t go up for vote yet
johnnyanmac 6 hours ago [-]
Last minute plea to secure in an election?
Either way: even if it's never put to a vote, having the bill as a basis to build on for the next House will be something, at least. Better than nothing (which we are increasingly getting used to).
mpalmer 11 hours ago [-]
Note the meaning of the original headline is distorted. this is not an NY state law, but an NY member of Congress putting forward federal legislation.
sippingabonedry 11 hours ago [-]
Dupe
pembrook 2 hours ago [-]
I think we've reached the logical endpoint of populism.
This bill essentially can be distilled down to: "Companies are required to give me whatever I want for whatever price I want and they have to give me customer support forever."
Will just result in every game moving to a Saas model. And then a bunch of braindead people will be complaining about that as if the thing they voted for didn't cause that shift, requiring another piece of legislation that just kills the smaller publishers altogether.
kittikitti 8 hours ago [-]
Personally, this bill makes me want to buy games more. I would likely pirate things much, much, more if everything's "licensed" even if I buy it. I agree with the bill because everyone wins except for the capitalists that want us all permanently renting.
MentalM 3 hours ago [-]
Wait, what? Aren't that bill literally supposed to do exactly the opposite?
"Are you selling the games? Here are your new duties and obligations, and tomorrow you will get even more, get ready to publish source code or something! What, your game only on paid subscription? Guess what? Keep doing what you are doing, that bill has nothing to do with you!"
aurareturn 12 hours ago [-]
A year ago, I had the opinion that it'd be too expensive for developers to support offline mode, peer to peer, or community servers after shutdown.
Today, I don't. I think it's probably a week's worth of work with AI and 1-2 developers.
However, enforcing this law is going to be tricky. How well does the peer to peer have to work? How about off line mode? How much support does the developer provide for community servers? Is it only a one-time support?
A developer going bankrupt isn't going to be able to do too much.
anonymous908213 11 hours ago [-]
Literally all they'd have to do is release the server executable(s) they already have. The community will do whatever work is necessary to get them running even if they require a cursed stack and client modifications.
Aerroon 1 hours ago [-]
It runs into the problem of region locked licensing stepping onto the toes of other regions.
Imagine a Korean company makes a game and sells a license to an American company to publish their game. Eventually the American company shuts down and is now forced to release the playable game.
This version of the game is now going to compete with the Korean version of the game, because nobody will be enforcing the region lock anymore.
Your reaction to this is probably "great, screw region locking!" but judging by how some of these Korean games do in the west it's entirely possible that they will forego a global/American release altogether. They make most of their money from the Korean or Chinese region. Why would they risk that for a smaller global region?
Personally, I wouldn't mind this, but I can certainly see how this could backfire and keep some of the eastern games exclusively eastern.
NegativeLatency 9 hours ago [-]
At least now it’s pretty straight forward for a hobbies group or individual to reverse the protocol and implement something that’s open source along with patches
rbits 5 hours ago [-]
Reverse engineering the protocol is not the same as reverse engineering the entire server, though. That would be very hard in most cases, especially when you don't have access to the server binary.
Shank 11 hours ago [-]
> I had the opinion that it'd be too expensive for developers to support offline mode, peer to peer, or community servers after shutdown
It’s never like the server becomes lost media when they shut down services. Most development studios have an easy way to run the server stack locally for development anyway. The problem is forcing someone to actually spend several hours doing packaging to get it deployable and the general reluctance of companies to “lose control” of what they have. There are many alternate servers that have existed that developers have intentionally axed like AlterIWNet because of control reasons, not because the complete solution already existed.
jjulius 11 hours ago [-]
Why is this an existential issue? Every game that could be played, on all platforms, from all studios, for decades, met this requirement because they could be played offline right out of the box.
Allowing your game to not require an internet connection or checking in with servers from the get go is the way. Easy peasy.
brookst 10 hours ago [-]
Permutations of environments are the bane of quality. Designing for offline is easy. Designing for online is easy. Designing for both isn’t impossible, but it’s certainly harder than designing for one or the other.
Rohansi 8 hours ago [-]
It's not at all harder on a technical level. Offline is the same as online with only one player. Many games boot up a server automatically when you play singleplayer.
jjulius 10 hours ago [-]
And yet, also for a couple of decades or so, we could play video games that would function just fine offline and could online in multiplayer mode.
This take, and OP's, both feel like they're ignoring nearly half a century of how games have functioned in favor of the over-engineered industry of the past ~15 years. Again, as I said in my first response I'm maybe speaking out of ignorance here, but why are we acting like it's incredibly difficult to do something we were very capable of doing for a very long time, and for less effort than what we put in now?
Terr_ 9 hours ago [-]
Yeah, it's not that companies "forgot" how to design for offline use.
They deliberately chose to design against it, because they discovered they can extract a lot more money by offering paid Progression Boosts so that players can more-quickly acquire Artificially Scarce Reward, or selling additional draws of a virtual lottery.
So it's a business thing. In terms of technology, it's the opposite: Offline play is more feasible for more kinds of games than ever before, since local AI (of various types) has improved, reducing the need to recruit a human counterpart over the internet.
johnnyanmac 6 hours ago [-]
AI or not: the main idea here is that future developed games under such policy would already be built to go offline/p2p at a moment's notice. It's relatively easy to make the switch if you build for it (or if your engine has tools to support it).
>A developer going bankrupt isn't going to be able to do too much.
Banktupcy at this scale simply means ownership of the IP and game changes to someone else. So they'd be on the hook if they want to operate in any jurisdiction with such a law.
matheusmoreira 11 hours ago [-]
They don't have to do anything. They just need to stay the hell out of our way. They don't even need to release anything, we'll do it all ourselves at zero cost to them. Just don't bother us with idiotic lawyer nonsense, that's literally the only thing they have to do.
somenameforme 9 hours ago [-]
Fully in support of this, but it will never happen, at least not for digital purchases, for a simple economic reason: the internet enables far too efficient a market and it'd wreck businesses with the first sale doctrine. One game sold by the publisher would then be constantly resold by endusers with an ever decreasing price to the point that you could probably buy most of any game for a couple of bucks a year or so after release. The reason this doesn't already happen with physical copies is because there's tedium + cost involved in the transfer, and they also create a motivation to collect. It's somehow enjoyable see a shelf full of games, music, movies, or whatever else.
More realistic would be improving copyright law. I think it'd be reasonable to state that copyright lasts 20 years from the first 'transfer' (sell, licensing, etc) of a creation. 20 years is long enough to fully monetize, but also short enough to really enable some interesting acceleration/derivation in society. For instance just about now XBox 360 games would be coming out of copyright protection. That seems perfectly reasonable, especially in the era of LLMs where 'sidestepping' copyright is going to be increasingly trivial anyhow.
neya 9 hours ago [-]
The people who really ruined for everyone else are the hipsters that supported coffee machines connected 24/7 to the internet and wouldn't function unless you paid a monthly subscription.
antonvs 46 minutes ago [-]
This comment is right up there with the ones claiming millennial financial woes are due to eating avocado toast.
add-sub-mul-div 7 hours ago [-]
Or anyone who fanboys for Steam. The origination and normalization of game non-ownership.
II2II 7 hours ago [-]
Games were licensed long before Steam. Heck, I remember buying a game in the early 1990's that would disable use of the floppies once it was installed to the hard drive. By the time Steam rolled around, registration keys with online verification were normalized.
Macha 5 hours ago [-]
Securom? StarForce?
bluegatty 8 hours ago [-]
I don't think you know what 'hipster' is, and no, there is not some group that did the wifi coffee machines, and if there were, that would not have changed anything.
FYI the IoT wave was firmly industry driven.
m463 6 hours ago [-]
have you ever bought anything from gog.com?
kulahan 9 hours ago [-]
I suppose they'll just have to give up on selling games in the US.
Do you think it's possible we could simply sell physical copies on physical media and deal with the necessity to build new products every so often?
gwerbin 9 hours ago [-]
I don't think it was ever the case that games which could theoretically be redistributed were unprofitable. It's more that locking everyone into a subscription or renting-as-buying for everything just happens to be more profitable. That's true for just about anything ever in the world, it just so happens that the game, film, and music industries were able to actually pull it off. Other industries suffered from problems of bad public opinion, but the frog is being boiled as we speak, just take a look at the car industry for example.
You need to somehow increase the cost of doing the bad thing, and then the natural equilibrium will return to doing the good thing. It's like whenever anyone raises taxes or proposes regulation, someone out there cries about how millionaires or landlords or whoever will all leave. But that rarely happens, if ever, because it's rare that the regulation actually makes something so unprofitable as to not be worth doing, usually it just makes it somewhat less profitable than doing it the unrestricted way.
kulahan 7 hours ago [-]
The law is how you increase the cost. Every law has a punishment for breaking it.
I don't think it matters even one iota how much more profitable it is to do something explicitly bad for consumers, explicitly to ensure you extract more profit from those consumers. McDonald's can beg to put sawdust in their burgers, and dairy providers can beg to put chalk and other whiteners in their milk, and game devs can beg to retain full ownership of everything they rent out AND be able to change the thing you've rented without notice or recourse.
All of that is profitable. It's also all desperately in need of regulation.
phendrenad2 8 hours ago [-]
I'm so sick of people getting downvoted for telling the truth that people don't like. HN, do better. If you want an infinite warm hug where we lie to each other and pretend that utopia and magical rainbow unicorns for all is right around the corner, please go somewhere else, or please please manage to suppress these urges for long enough to maintain HN as the science and logic based community it once was. Or crash and burn in a hopium-fueled echochamber that benefit no one, what do I care. shrug
nvme0n1p1 8 hours ago [-]
Are you saying you think it's not economically viable to build and sell games that work offline and can be bought used? If so, how did the gaming industry survive and continue growing for several decades from the 1980s through the 2010s?
somenameforme 7 hours ago [-]
Physical vs digital ownership, as I went at lengths to distinguish between.
card_zero 7 hours ago [-]
How would I go about reselling a game I downloaded from GOG? If you're right, this should be happening already.
somenameforme 4 hours ago [-]
DRM free does not mean you own the game. All companies, including GoG rely on the 'licensing trick' to avoid granting first sale doctrine related rights, like reselling. You can read the EULA in any game you buy from GoG or read part of it here: "3.3 Your GOG account and GOG content are personal to you and cannot be shared with, sold, gifted or transferred to anyone else." [1]
Otherwise yeah, you'd be able to buy most stuff on GoG for pennies by now.
I didn't downvote, but I read the comment and simply thought in my head "so piracy should have tanked the market 25 years ago, in the Limewire age huh?"
History's disproven the notion that easy copying means constantly depreciating prices. The premise is flawed unless something so fundamentally different about piracy in 2026 is happening compared to 2000.
bob1029 4 hours ago [-]
Imagine this from the perspective of a small indie studio, not from the perspective of a gamer. Lots of collateral damage with our first principles thinking here.
If we want to get serious about this there need to be exceptions. You can't force a one man shop to sing and dance the same rule set you would apply to all of Microsoft. At least, if your goal isn't to kill indie gaming and further expand the moats of the very people who would be inclined to lobby for this kind of moat expansion legislation.
layer8 4 hours ago [-]
What issues do you see? From the article, when selling a game you either have to ensure its continued online functionality or have to provide an offline mode. That seems reasonable to me.
It would actually be beneficial for end-user software in general.
JumpCrisscross 4 hours ago [-]
> What issues do you see?
Well, there is no actual bill text because this idiot is more interested in announcing what "he will introduce" than actually writing legislation.
But let's assume it has a hard requirement that a game work offline. Let's say an indie developer releases something where some component that fails when some random server stops responding. If the law or regulation is poorly written, that could create liability for them. Hell, it could create an opening through which well-funded studies could target indie competitors.
tobylane 4 hours ago [-]
You haven't said what the indie studio perspective is. What damage would this do to indie gaming? Does it come above consumer rights?
bagels 4 hours ago [-]
"would also require publishers to keep the game functional after support ends"
You are signing up for a life sentence of maintenance. No thanks.
layer8 4 hours ago [-]
"Games with online functionality would also be required to provide an offline mode before the servers supporting them are shut down."
Providing an offline mode doesn’t imply continued maintenance.
JumpCrisscross 4 hours ago [-]
> Providing an offline mode doesn’t imply continued maintenance
There should be a liability cap for developers under a revenue ceiling and an exemption for free games. An indie developer shouldn't be worried about getting sued because a component of their game wasn't properly audited for offline use.
hdgvhicv 2 hours ago [-]
Release the server code, job done.
JumpCrisscross 2 hours ago [-]
> Release the server code, job done
Sure. Let's say you bungle that. Should it cost you your home? What if you die before you finish that work. Should your family lose its estate?
More trivially, what if you were a muppet and put a bunch of critical stuff in your environment, forgot to export that, and then shut everything down to deal with, idk, an illness or a child or any of the other stuff that might cause someone just making stuff for fun to change directions.
gvfsa 4 hours ago [-]
Potentially it adds a lot of work depending on what kind of game it is. Some make no sense without the online component - think something like Counter-Strike
Rzor 4 hours ago [-]
I think parent meant "offline support" meaning you get bots (PvE) and LAN/custom server (PvP), which CS is perfectly capable of since 1.6.
Nothing has been introduced–he has "announced he will introduce." It's still silly-season bluster.
One of the big issues with DRM is that it's not legal in the US to break the digital lock even if the work is in the public domain, so that needs to be accounted for as well.
My understanding is that the Library of Congress has the authority to designate situations in which it is legal to remove DRM on electronic copies of books you have purchased, such as to run it through a TTS program for those that are visually impaired. Does this not apply to other art mediums?
And the legal basis is completely different, copyrights are created as an artificial right in the Copyright Clause, given for a limited time and purpose. They are not property in the traditional sense and Congress has absolute power over them.
not that has stopped the US doing something.
The fact is, copyright extensions have served corporate interests well and is likely to continue to get extended even more, and more draconian, given how many decompilation and recomps have been done recently.
The incumbents would probably file lawsuits, but would they win?
If Congress can set copyright terms retroactively, why can't they set copyright terms retroactively?
What happens if they do the thing where you have to file for a renewal every year and the first 14 years are free and automatic, but then the renewal fee starts at $1000 and doubles for every year over 14?
> violate treaties the US has signed.
This is just an excuse the industry uses after bribing their way into some documents that can be renegotiated at any time. The US has been the ones pushing for this nonsense to begin with, so if they stopped, most other countries would be happy to enter into a different treaty. And the remaining ones would be the ones with the most to lose if they were the only ones to not sign onto the new agreement at the point when the US and most others pull out of the corrupt one.
It's the dumbest and most obvious weakness of our system of government and it will never be fixed.
We already have reverse engineering tools, and the vast majority of 20 year old media isn't producing new revenue.
Will never ever happen. Disney alone would spend billions to stop any meaningful copyright reforms
If you look back at what was created in the past, 30 years seems like an absolute minimum, 50 years seems about right -- perhaps with a registration requirement for the full term so that works with an unclear publication date and ownership can be easily traced. That would mean the film Logan's Run would just be leaving copyright protection now.
For context, I believe in the UK, there is a 50-year term for broadcasts, computer-generated works, Crown Copyright (125 years or 50 from first commercial publication if within 75 years of creation), and certain classes of films. There's a schedule here: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/copyright-notice-...
“Someone” might, but most people won’t. Do you think studios are going to announce the next blockbuster and most people will be like “eh, I’ll just wait 20 years, maybe I’ll have a kid and raise them until adulthood to pass the time”?
Portal is going to be 20 next year. I bought Portal 1 and 2 for a couple of bucks like a decade ago already.
I’d even say 20 years default is two long. Especially because there are things which are just abandoned. Make it shorter and add limited options to renew for limited time.
WoW launched in an essentially unfinished state. Molten Core, the first 40-man raid, didn't have a loot table. I'm not sure it was even accessible on launch day. And when it did get a loot table, it had placeholder graphics for the tier 1 set.
This was fine: it would take months for players to be able to tackle end-game content, so the game didn't need to launch with it all ready to go. But a law requiring Blizzard to keep a launch-day WoW available wouldn't be especially satisfying.
Even if you changed it to be "its full functional state" or something similar, that gets weird. After Molten Core was BWL, which you couldn't reach on launch. And so on and so forth. WoW changes a ton over an expansion, and each expansion brings even bigger changes (do you play pre-Cata or post?). Do we require Blizzard to keep available each and every patch version? Hotfix version? How do players decide which they want to play? I really enjoyed the Argent Tournament, but I bet most preferred actually reaching ICC (which itself had a bunch of time locks before you could reach Arthas, himself).
[1]: Even beyond everything outlined, WoW gets weird when you consider Classic and now Forever.
An ever-evolving game with properties of a SaaS would likely not exist under this new law.
Blizzard already knew how to build self-contained products with self-contained expansions even before WoW was released. StarCraft was the original game and StarCraft Broodwar was the expansion. It will affect game release cycles and properties of what you get with the game, but that's seems like part of the point of the legislation.
For example, massive expansion of free to play games with cosmetic microtransactions.
When the game ends... what is it that you've bought? The cosmetics, you never bought the game. If they give you an offline "shooting range" mode where you can wander the maps in the cosmetics you bought, have they satisfied the requirements? Again, you never bought the game you bought the cosmetics.
A step farther, loot drops in loot boxes that take time to unlock, on the order of days, weeks or months. You buy something to accelerate the unlock process down to hours. What have you bought? Just a faster unlock of something you'd have received anyway. So what are you owed when the game goes end of life? You didn't buy the game, you didn't buy the contents of the lootbox.
Problem is with “purchase” imho.
Expanding exceptions to copyright law would be nice for different reasons, but custom servers and emulation were already legal before companies figured out they could put arbitrarily difficult roadblocks in the way of them.
Also while we're here, DMCA 512 was also a piece of horseshit, albeit less because it curtailed online freedom and more because it isn't a good way to adjudicate low-stakes copyright claims.
One senator makes a press release saying that he plans to introduce a bill protecting game ownership.
It's not clear if this bill has any chance of being voted in - and even if it does, we have no idea what is actually in the bill.
To disrupt this natural tendency, you need an external influence which is not beholden to this scoring function. A good example (but not the only one) of such an external influence would be government regulations.
You could try to influence the cycle as consumers, but there are two significant roadblocks for this approach. Firstly, consumers are highly decentralized, and heterogeneous in their beliefs and actions. Sure, _you_ may understand and believe that a licensing model is bad, but how about the billions of others who are less politically engaged? The second is that consumers operate largely in the same profit driven system as the corporations we're trying to change. It takes a very principled individual to buy gta 6 at a 50% markup just so they can -own- the game rather than just rent it indefinitely.
I don't know of any instances in history of consumers making any meaningful impact in this way. Tons of examples of government regulation effecting meaningful change though.
The fact that I'm "buying" a license holds as much weight in this issue as the countless eulas and privacy policies i supposedly agreed to.
We "endusers" live in a world were we are compelled, yes compelled, to enter legal agreements to do anything, and where these terms are dictated and changed unilaterally. Terms like these should and are meaningless yo everyone except for courts that foolishly hold them valid. For everything else, they should and are ignored.
"Your GOG account and GOG content are personal to you and cannot be shared with, sold, gifted or transferred to anyone else."
He hasn't introduced squat. I complained about this two days ago [1][2]. It's incredibly disingenuous to pretend to announce legislation while keeping the text–possibly unwritten–secret.
(Torres is running for reëlection as a Democrat in a solid-D district [3].)
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50123852
[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50123154
[3] https://www.cookpolitical.com/house/race/483646
Everyone is pushing for the rights of keeping the game alive after support ends, but in the move to digital I'm much more concerned with the loss of second hand markets.
Historically, my concern hasn't been running a 2005 game in 2025. Emulation tends to find ways. My concern is that this generation I was able to game at about 10 bucks per game (buying for 30 selling for 20 after I'm done, roughly) and the next generation is shaping at 100/game. That's a 10x increase in practice for the hobby.
The Legend of Zelda in 1987 was $50. Adjusted for inflation it would cost $151 today.
Diablo 2 released in 1999 at $50. Today that would be $101.
Diablo 3 released in 2012 at $60. Today that would be $88.
Diablo 4 released in 2023 at $70. Even this would be $77 today, despite being only 3 years ago.
Zelda Tears of the Kingdom released in 2023 for $70.
I do agree that the lack of a secondary market is concerning, but I think that in practice subscription services, piracy, and F2P games fulfill the niche of low cost gaming (for now). Don't know what the future holds though.
F2P is not an alternative because (good) games are not a commodity, each piece is individually valuable (otherwise why conserve?). Subscription services are just enshittification waiting to happen.
Piracy is actually an alternative, but we all lose if consumers are pushed to that.
The lack of secondary market is not only a concern for low cost gamers, it also pushes for monopolies in several different dimensions. For example, you're less likely to move platforms if you can't resell your library. You're also less likely to give a chance to a less known dev if you can't resell in case you don't like it.
This sounds counter intuitive, but the added friction is THE WHY they don't want to call it a rental on paper, only on appeals.
The same applies to concerts and weekend club: This is an event with a defined time limit.
You call a car leasing a leasing, you don't call it a sale with a small print.
And maybe a carveout if your licensing gets pulled.
I really want copyright to stay the hell out of the way of just letting players reverse engineer old games, but it's an international thing at this point
This is a common excuse publishers use to yank games, so if you do this the bill would be crippled.
We have a right to own our videogame, there is absolutely no necessity to have an exclusion, make the server open source if you want to shutdown the server
Don't they understand e-waste and how is it piling up?
if people can buy the game with ownership, then how does subscription like software adobe is exist ?????
along with everything else introduced that doesn’t go up for vote yet
Either way: even if it's never put to a vote, having the bill as a basis to build on for the next House will be something, at least. Better than nothing (which we are increasingly getting used to).
This bill essentially can be distilled down to: "Companies are required to give me whatever I want for whatever price I want and they have to give me customer support forever."
Will just result in every game moving to a Saas model. And then a bunch of braindead people will be complaining about that as if the thing they voted for didn't cause that shift, requiring another piece of legislation that just kills the smaller publishers altogether.
"Are you selling the games? Here are your new duties and obligations, and tomorrow you will get even more, get ready to publish source code or something! What, your game only on paid subscription? Guess what? Keep doing what you are doing, that bill has nothing to do with you!"
Today, I don't. I think it's probably a week's worth of work with AI and 1-2 developers.
However, enforcing this law is going to be tricky. How well does the peer to peer have to work? How about off line mode? How much support does the developer provide for community servers? Is it only a one-time support?
A developer going bankrupt isn't going to be able to do too much.
Imagine a Korean company makes a game and sells a license to an American company to publish their game. Eventually the American company shuts down and is now forced to release the playable game.
This version of the game is now going to compete with the Korean version of the game, because nobody will be enforcing the region lock anymore.
Your reaction to this is probably "great, screw region locking!" but judging by how some of these Korean games do in the west it's entirely possible that they will forego a global/American release altogether. They make most of their money from the Korean or Chinese region. Why would they risk that for a smaller global region?
Personally, I wouldn't mind this, but I can certainly see how this could backfire and keep some of the eastern games exclusively eastern.
It’s never like the server becomes lost media when they shut down services. Most development studios have an easy way to run the server stack locally for development anyway. The problem is forcing someone to actually spend several hours doing packaging to get it deployable and the general reluctance of companies to “lose control” of what they have. There are many alternate servers that have existed that developers have intentionally axed like AlterIWNet because of control reasons, not because the complete solution already existed.
Allowing your game to not require an internet connection or checking in with servers from the get go is the way. Easy peasy.
This take, and OP's, both feel like they're ignoring nearly half a century of how games have functioned in favor of the over-engineered industry of the past ~15 years. Again, as I said in my first response I'm maybe speaking out of ignorance here, but why are we acting like it's incredibly difficult to do something we were very capable of doing for a very long time, and for less effort than what we put in now?
They deliberately chose to design against it, because they discovered they can extract a lot more money by offering paid Progression Boosts so that players can more-quickly acquire Artificially Scarce Reward, or selling additional draws of a virtual lottery.
So it's a business thing. In terms of technology, it's the opposite: Offline play is more feasible for more kinds of games than ever before, since local AI (of various types) has improved, reducing the need to recruit a human counterpart over the internet.
>A developer going bankrupt isn't going to be able to do too much.
Banktupcy at this scale simply means ownership of the IP and game changes to someone else. So they'd be on the hook if they want to operate in any jurisdiction with such a law.
More realistic would be improving copyright law. I think it'd be reasonable to state that copyright lasts 20 years from the first 'transfer' (sell, licensing, etc) of a creation. 20 years is long enough to fully monetize, but also short enough to really enable some interesting acceleration/derivation in society. For instance just about now XBox 360 games would be coming out of copyright protection. That seems perfectly reasonable, especially in the era of LLMs where 'sidestepping' copyright is going to be increasingly trivial anyhow.
FYI the IoT wave was firmly industry driven.
Do you think it's possible we could simply sell physical copies on physical media and deal with the necessity to build new products every so often?
You need to somehow increase the cost of doing the bad thing, and then the natural equilibrium will return to doing the good thing. It's like whenever anyone raises taxes or proposes regulation, someone out there cries about how millionaires or landlords or whoever will all leave. But that rarely happens, if ever, because it's rare that the regulation actually makes something so unprofitable as to not be worth doing, usually it just makes it somewhat less profitable than doing it the unrestricted way.
I don't think it matters even one iota how much more profitable it is to do something explicitly bad for consumers, explicitly to ensure you extract more profit from those consumers. McDonald's can beg to put sawdust in their burgers, and dairy providers can beg to put chalk and other whiteners in their milk, and game devs can beg to retain full ownership of everything they rent out AND be able to change the thing you've rented without notice or recourse.
All of that is profitable. It's also all desperately in need of regulation.
Otherwise yeah, you'd be able to buy most stuff on GoG for pennies by now.
[1] - https://support.gog.com/hc/en-us/articles/212632089-GOG-User...
History's disproven the notion that easy copying means constantly depreciating prices. The premise is flawed unless something so fundamentally different about piracy in 2026 is happening compared to 2000.
If we want to get serious about this there need to be exceptions. You can't force a one man shop to sing and dance the same rule set you would apply to all of Microsoft. At least, if your goal isn't to kill indie gaming and further expand the moats of the very people who would be inclined to lobby for this kind of moat expansion legislation.
It would actually be beneficial for end-user software in general.
Well, there is no actual bill text because this idiot is more interested in announcing what "he will introduce" than actually writing legislation.
But let's assume it has a hard requirement that a game work offline. Let's say an indie developer releases something where some component that fails when some random server stops responding. If the law or regulation is poorly written, that could create liability for them. Hell, it could create an opening through which well-funded studies could target indie competitors.
You are signing up for a life sentence of maintenance. No thanks.
Providing an offline mode doesn’t imply continued maintenance.
There should be a liability cap for developers under a revenue ceiling and an exemption for free games. An indie developer shouldn't be worried about getting sued because a component of their game wasn't properly audited for offline use.
Sure. Let's say you bungle that. Should it cost you your home? What if you die before you finish that work. Should your family lose its estate?
More trivially, what if you were a muppet and put a bunch of critical stuff in your environment, forgot to export that, and then shut everything down to deal with, idk, an illness or a child or any of the other stuff that might cause someone just making stuff for fun to change directions.